British Western Shooting Society

Types of shotgun for CAS

Hi Folks,

I am trying to gain a bit of information about the shotguns you use for CAS.  I must confess I am aPractical Shotgun man myself but, I am trying to help out one of our members get the best gun for PSG whilst being predominantly for CAS.

I thought you may allow the Winchester lever action 1887,but what about the 1901 or even the 1897 pump gun?

Also, are the guns allowed to be choked?  I know at PSG you will suffer without chokes but I am not sure you guys will allow it or if you do may require a truecylinder for your sport.

Any answers would be appreciated, my thanks in advance to those that reply.

Kind regards

Mick

Hi Mick, 

Any of the Shotguns you have listed will do and are used by our members, chokes offer no advantage at the distances we shoot, the srew in ones that protrude are not really authentic.

Some members do use the more modern pump ie Mossberg etc but only whilst they source a period piece, although some are still taking years to find one:).

You need to come along and have a go.

Kevin

Kincade is correct and, as a matter of fact, I cut the chokes off my SxS, but only because of the distance (can you call that close, distance?)  we shoot at, rarely above 10 or 15 yards.

One week I was first on the first stage, and as luck would have it, the poppers were freshly painted. I managed to hit the first poppers smack in the middle of the 'cross', it left a perfect 4" pattern, back to bare metal,coming out of 'cylinder' chokes, (can you call them chokes, if they are not there?)

So, if he can find a '97 or '87 with changeable chokes, he will be set up for both disciplines. Not the 1901 though, that is out of our era.

Get a 1897 pump should be good to go but magazine capacity may be a bit of an issue in practical, mine takes 6+1, dont think it would be possible to extend the mag tube.

Cut my barrel down so lost the choke, think it was about half choke before it fell on the hacksaw. Could always get internal screw chokes fitted if you needed to keep changing.

Spent most of my practical shotgun days with an open or improved barrel ,cant say i really noticed any difference.

Dewey

I will take you up on that one day Kevin.  I will have to have a word with Ben (the guywanting to join our club) and see when he is going to a shoot.

Do you do club shoots or are they part of a circuit?  Which clubs participate in this kind of shooting?

I fully understand about the protruding chokes and also about the distances, which is where practical shotgun is that bit different as we do different distances and also have no-shoot targets next to standard targets.

Angel Eyes, a 4” pattern is very tight.  To be honest I would not expect that from afull choke at 10m.  When I practicechokes I try and do it on paper or on an emulsionned plate which I will take a photo of, both so I can remember them for the future.  If the guy can achieve a 4” pattern at 10m he has no problem.  My first shotgun was aMossberg 500 slugster.  This had no chokes and also the biggest spread I have ever seen – a total disadvantage for PSG.

Dewey, the 1897 with a 6” mag capacity would put him at adisadvantage but as he wants it for CAS predominantly, at least it is betterthan anything lower.  In the standard classes you can load 8+1.  I run astandard pump and my gun will hold 10+1. This is to allow me to load extra rounds as I move from position to position.

What shot sizes are you using?

What guns and calibres do you tend to use?  Also do you power your rounds down a bit to prevent splash back from the steels? What do you make your steel targets from, is it standard mild steel oris it hardened?  I make my own targetsfor PSG including poppers, plates, Texas Stars and bobbers (swinging targets for paper).  The plates are from 10mm mild steel but I need some for shooting solid slug onto and was going to do them from 12mm, but hardened steel would be better.

Thanks for the replys up to now guys, very interesting!

Regards

Mick

Personally myself and the missus use 21gr 71/2 shot, yep i know very light, but thats about all that doesnt bang her about to much and you dont really need anything heavier for what we do.

I think the 2 main clubs are using some sort of special steel for the targets, not sure of the precise type, but mild steel targets can be used.

Most use relatively light non magnum loads but if you look at whats left after hitting the steels are pretty much a flat lead disk.

The design of the targets is such they are angled towards the floor to prevent splash back as well.

Not sure how theyd fair against slug particularly at the ranges we shoot at.

As far as clubs Angel has been trying to get a list together but there tends to be a north south divide with clubs up north doing BWSS style and those down south doing things differently.

Dewey

Hi Mick,

10mm mild steel eventually craters with 38/45 lead bullets and will do so with slugs. EN8 steel is better but best of all is Hardox 500, which is 500 Brinell hardness. It is used for digger buckets and conveyors. I make the CAS targets for my club - you can see my bobber version on my You Tube channel, perryowens1. I am currently working on a texas star but using magnets instead of spring clips.

Thanks guys,

I would not shoot slug at steel at such short ranges as that is a hell of a lot of power onto the plate. You are likely to damage the plates but even worse are possibly going to get something coming back.

Commodore, I have some drawings of my Texas Star if that would be any use.  I use springs on mine but not in the same way as the American ones as I had to use what I could get.  I also had to use techniques that I could put together on my drive at home.

Where do you get your steel from and is it expensive?  I would like to use some of the 500 Brinnelfor my slug poppers as this may then also be able to be used for pistol calibre guns too.  It would be nice to think it could also be used for full bore rifle but I would not like to damage the kit too quickly after manufacture.  I tried getting costs for the hardened stuff before but they came back with much higher prices than the standard mild steel – I would perhaps be better going straight to the laser companies for prices on them as they may well get a better price on the steel.

Also, regarding the shotgun, where is the best place to purchase and what sort of price would you be looking at?

Thanks for your help guys.

Regards

Mick

Mick,

I get my steel from K-Cut in Morecombe. They have an online shop where they sell offcuts in useful shapes and sizes. Hardox is expensive compared to ordinary mild steel but even .308 rounds just bounce off it. EN8 is a compromise but cheaper - I pay £12 for a 30cm x 12mm plasma-cut disc from my local stockholder.

Regarding the shotgun, decent original 1897s command premium prices because of demand. Norinco make a repro 1897 but I have no experience of them. Some of our members here are dealers and can advise you on prices.

What thickness of Hardox do you use?

10mm is fine. Most of the commercially available targets from the US are made of 3/8in 500BH steel.

Mick,

I waited five years to find my 1897,  there was one on Gunstar some days ago but it was a three shot and up for £600.

Norinco`s are hard to find at decent prices, you need to search really hard to find them.

Dances

You and your mate should come along to a shoot and have a go iam sure we can fix you up with all the necessary.

Perhaps your mates best option would be to buy a pump or auto optimised for PSG plus a cheap second hand side by side non ejector for CAS. Shorten the barrels to 20+ inches, hone the chambers and enjoy. We only ever load 2 in CAS comps so a pump gun does not always offer an advantage.

Now there I will have to disagree, as I think that those who practice with the Pump and get slick with the reloading save on average about 3-5 seconds from what I have experienced.

I know it doesn't seem like much but in this game, seconds count

What I meant was that the fact that a pump had a magazine was of no advantage in CAS. I have shot PSG with an 1897 and the relatively small mag capacity can be a disadvantage in some stages. I agree that I am faster with my 1897 on multiple targets but if a stage has only two shotgun targets or one target is an aerial clay it's comforting to have two barrels loaded.

In that case, yes, but I have never had the pleasure of an aeriel clay yet, something to look forward to.

Having used all of them I think a pump only has a speed advantage over a SxS if there's more than four targets on the stage, if you can pull and load 2 at once your first 2 shots with a SxS are quicker, unless you can get the drop 2 mod done the '87 is a poor third. Just my opinion.